Nguyen execution will spur death penalty opposition: Amnesty

MAXINE McKEW: Back now to our top story on the execution of Van Nguyen. And helping to coordinate many of the observances held around Australia today was the advocacy group Amnesty International. Organisers are now saying that today's protests will see renewed agitation for the abolition of the death penalty. Well, I'm joined now from Brisbane by Amnesty's anti-death penalty coordinator, Tim Goodwin. He led the Martin Place protest in Sydney this morning. After these observances that Amnesty organised today, or certainly some of them, what are your reflections on the day?

TIM GOODWIN, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Well, I think today was clearly a very sad day for human rights and a very sad day, of course, for Van Nguyen and his family. And the mood was reflected at these events - it was sombre, it was reflective. I think I've never seen a protest quite like it in all my years of working on human rights. People were coming together in public places and crying openly, hugging each other and laying down flowers and I think just having those few moments silence with their thoughts about those terrible things that were happening in Singapore today. And the other thing, of course, with these events is that we've been sensing a real mood of determination among people, that's been growing over the last few weeks. People are determined not only to protest against this execution as it was carried out, but also to stay involved in an ongoing campaign against the death penalty in the region.

MAXINE MCKEW: But do you accept though, for as much as there was, as you say, all this visible support, perhaps just as many Australians do take a different view. And perhaps that was reflected in the Morgan Poll, which was published this morning, which shows almost a 50/50 split on this issue?

TIM GOODWIN: The death penalty has a long history of polarising views and I think in many ways that reflects the fact that there are also a lot of people who are focusing on the crimes that society is having to face here and they're looking at the death penalty as a possible solution, whether it's drug trafficking or violent murder and so on. And I think what those people need to be aware of is the death penalty hasn't been shown to be effective. In study after study around the world, we have no evidence that it provides societies with the sort of protection they're looking for. And that goes for Singapore in relation to drug trafficking as well. If you're looking for a drastic penalty to solve these crime problems, the death penalty is not the answer. And, of course, it is a violation of some of the most basic human rights.

MAXINE MCKEW: But you seem to be suggesting that perhaps today's event, perhaps marks a turning point in greater advocacy for the abolition of the death penalty.

TIM GOODWIN: I think what we've seen over the last six weeks has been one extended turning point in our campaign. We've had unprecedented attention paid to the violations in a country like Singapore. We've had an unprecedented level of interest in our ongoing campaigning right across the region and globally. From the many thousands of people we've been talking to, they're asking how they can stay involved. They're asking how can they continue to contribute to this. The pain that people felt today and the grieving on behalf of Van Nguyen's mother that people were doing today, I don't think they won't to see any family put through that. They don't want to see any individual paying with their life for their crimes or their mistakes. And I think it definitely is leading to a sense of determination of people to keep up this struggle.

MAXINE MCKEW: But have we not handicapped ourselves by demonstrating a double standard in this, particularly in arguing the case, say, in Asia? I mean we largely protest the killing of someone such as Van Nguyen but are mute when it comes to the death penalty being applied to someone such as the Bali Bomber, Amrozi.

TIM GOODWIN: Oh, absolutely. Look, what it demonstrates is, from the people who are involved, that they're looking for ways they can get involved, not just in Van Nguyen's case and not just in relation to Australian citizens. People are asking us, "How can I get involved in saving the many thousands of other people who face this horrendous penalty around the world each year?". And I think it's also a very strong message back to the Australian Government - the Government can't have it both ways. We've been concerned for some time that the Australian Government has been fatally compromised in its efforts to argue for clemency for Australian citizens because in the past it has signalled its approval for death sentences or even executions in other parts of the region. At a Government level, Australia has to decide whether it's actually opposed to the death penalty as a human rights violation. And is it opposed to that in all cases?

MAXINE MCKEW: So the time has come for consistency.

TIM GOODWIN: Absolutely. This message has not been lost on the region that the Australian Government has signalled its approval for particular executions, while seeming to pull out all stops to defend an Australian citizen. We can't use the measure of who should be exempted from the death penalty simply as the fact they're an Australian citizen. It's a double standard and fatally undermines Australia's credibility. We've seen every appeal for clemency from the Australian Government battered aside here by a Singapore Government that says it's standing on consistency. The only weapon we have in responding to that is strength and principled stance and, of course, consistency from the Australian Government.

MAXINE MCKEW: What of Singapore? In the last week or so, we've seen the build-up of very limited protests but they're certainly there. On the other hand, one argument would be, the greater the level of external pressure on a place like Singapore will only make the authorities there dig in deeper. Clearly Singapore is not a place that likes to be bullied by outsiders.

TIM GOODWIN: It's undeniable that change in Singapore on this will have to come from Singaporeans themselves. And to that extent, we're very pleased with the group of very brave individuals who have been speaking out over the last six months or so. We saw them protesting outside Changi Jail today and they're starting to look at how they can strengthen their protests. Remember, this is a society where a gathering of four people is considered a demonstration and without a police permit, people can be arrested for it. So they're operating in an environment of many restrictions on the freedom of the press and, of course, their ability to engage in public debate. The people of Singapore often don't know the very basic facts about how the death penalty is used in their country and they're not presented with the range of arguments. In this particular case over the past six weeks, we've seen leading newspapers in Singapore almost acting as mouthpieces for the Government in defending the official policy and certainly not airing a diversity of views. This grassroots campaign that's starting to build up is a sign of hope for the future. But in relation to international pressure, Amnesty International's history has shown us over four decades that international pressure, pressure from ordinary individuals around the world who have a basic level of concern for human rights, can bring about change and in relation to Singapore, well, how much more of a hardline stance can they take? They have mandatory death penalties, they have a staggering, high rate of executions and a great deal of secrecy about how those executions are carried out. So they could hardly be more hardline than that. What we need to do is encourage them every way we can to debate the death penalty.

MAXINE MCKEW: Just a final point if I could. What about another group of Australians who could be facing a similar situation and that, of course, is the Bali Nine. What options can and should be pursued by the Australian Government if any of the Bali Nine find themselves in the same position, facing the death penalty even perhaps next year?

TIM GOODWIN: Yes, as you say, we've got nine Australians and the charges that they're all facing carry a maximum sentence of the death penalty. So we may go down this road in the future. The Australian Government needs to take a strong lesson out of today's tragedy. It has got to be looking early and wide at what it can do in relation to Indonesia, both at the official levels but also behind the scenes as well. We have got to engage the Indonesian Government on this. We have to make it clear this is not just self-interest in arguing for Australian citizens but it is a human rights issue and I think we have also got to be looking internationally as well. Everybody is looking for solutions to the drug trade and we need to be debating this issue with them that the death penalty is not the answer to that terrible crime.

MAXINE MCKEW: Tim Goodwin, for your time tonight, thank you very much indeed.

TIM GOODWIN: Thank you.

Newshawk: http://www.napnt.org
Pubdate: Sat, 3 December 2005
Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation (Lateline)
Email: comments@your.abc.net.au
Copyright: 2005 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Website: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline
Reporter: Maxine McKew